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Re: Newly Updated NCDNHC Membership List

Kent and all,

Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 09:15:17AM -0700, noncom@bitshift.org wrote:
> [...]
> > >I think it is reasonable that there be some evidence of prior
> > >existence, as well.  I could easily create an organization with a
> > >dozen or so *real* members.  So, for example, as a rule of thumb,
> > >the organization should have been in existence, with verifiable
> > >membership, one year before the date of its application.
> >
> > Again, how do you verify membership?  Are you proposing that only
> > those organizations who conduct their membership processes in a
> > particular way be admitted?
> At some level, yes.  Frankly, I think some kind of legal existence
> -- incorporation or whatever -- should be required; it should
> predate the application by a year; there should be a publically
> verifiable membership, with evidence producible on demand.

  Not many truly NON-COMMERCIAL organizations are incorporated
and under US law are not required to be so.  Hence this suggestion from
Kent is not appropriate in this instance, nor should it be.

> > This seems biased against small (>50) membership groups.
> With 12 people and the rule you propose I could come up with 100
> organizations in a week, all with a real membership.  How do you
> propose we prevent that?

  Why should there need to be any prevention of such a situation.
In addition it is not likely that someone or group of individuals would
go to the trouble of creating such organizations as you suggest here
Kent...  Hence It seems that this contention is both unlikely and
also not really germane as such...

> Incidentally, I just reviewed the message you sent to the WG-D list
> on Aug 5, describing your background.  In that message you fail to
> mention your involvement in the organization you describe (unless you
> mean the "ISP coop"), and you fail to mention that you have applied for
> membership in the NCDNHC.
> [...]
> > I don't know whether this makes us "legitimate" in your eyes or not.
> > But I will urge you to think carefully about the answer to that
> > implied question, because this is the way a lot of small activist
> > groups operate, and you're in an arena that's bound to attract them
> > eventually.  These groups don't look like ISOC; they look more like
> > terrorist cells.  In fact, you could almost think of small activist
> > groups that way -- they're organized terrorist cells, fighting a
> > battle for your mind.
> Interesting analogy.
> > So, does the size disqualify them?  Is it their lack of a rigid
> > membership structure better suited to large organizations?  Does the
> > lack of "offici[al|ous]" paperwork like letterhead count them out?  Is
> > it their politics that disqualifies them?  Is it the perceived absence
> > of this vague "legitimacy"?  If someone doesn't like the organizer, is
> > the group barred?  Are they disallowed membership because they don't
> > look like 'traditional' organizations?  Do they have to have a web
> > page?  A fax machine?  A phone line?  An office?  A secretary?
> They must be verifiably real, for some useful definition of
> "verifiably".  I think they should be responsible, as well.  In all
> honesty, I don't think that the NCDNHC is intended to be a place for
> small groups organized like terrorist cells...

  Hummmm?  ARe you intimating that the organization Mark has submitted
is a terrorist organization?  It appears that you are here Kent.  Again an
improper assumption, and highly inappropriate as well...

> --
> Kent Crispin                               "Do good, and you'll be
> kent@songbird.com                           lonesome." -- Mark Twain
> ---
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