Public participation site

The following discussion over RegisterFly occurred in the chatroom on ICANN's public participation website during the public forum on Monday 26 March.

Note: This is an excerpt of the full chatroom archive covering just the discussion over RegisterFly in the morning of Monday 26 March 2007. The full chatroom archive covering all days of the conference and all those events that took place in the main room (Floriana 1+2) can be found here.

[10:10] kieren.mccarthy: I have a question. I can open up this chatroom to anyone on the Net for this meeting. What do people think?

[10:10] patrick: Fine with me

[10:11] kieren.mccarthy: My plan is to do exactly that and close it off again if the room is flooded with unhelpful comments

[10:12] kieren.mccarthy: It is now open to all

[10:12] guest-39: I have a question, when RFLY will be able to sell domains ?!

[10:14] guest-39: Hello !!!

[10:14] kieren.mccarthy: Welcome

[10:15] guest-41: lol

[10:16] guest-39: kieren.mccarthy, are u there ?

[10:17] guest-41: funny chat, sup everybody?

[10:19] JeffJohnson: who is speaking now?

[10:19] guest-41: huh?

[10:19] guest-41: hmm

[10:21] sandeep.r: hi everyone

[10:26] guest-41: lol

[10:28] guest-45: is anything being done about registerfly?

[10:29] guest-41: dont think so

[10:29] jothan: fun fun fun

[10:29] guest-41: lol

[10:31] jothan: I am keenly watching this session

[10:31] guest-41: :p

[10:31] jothan: this seems to be a large meeting, standing room only here in the room

[10:34] kieren.mccarthy: I am back - just had to head off to get the factsheet I have produced put in a pdf version and put up on the ICANN site

[10:35] guest-41: kieren.mccarthy, did you know that a few weeks ago registerfly appearantly got hacked?

[10:36] jothan: kieren what is the URL for the pdf

[10:36] guest-41: when i logged in, in the special offer part there was some message from the "hackers" like they pronounced

[10:36] jothan: fact sheet that was just handed out in the room?

[10:37] Tina Dam: i'm sitting up front and there are seats up here if you like - but yeah full meeting

[10:38] jothan: best practices is a good idea

[10:38] Joi: we need more power in this room

[10:38] kieren.mccarthy: Working on it - give me five mins. Will do a blog post on it as well

[10:38] guest-41: kieren.mccarthy are you talking to me? or...

[10:38] jothan: couldn't the registrar constituency resolve some of these issues within its own charter with best practices?

[10:39] jothan: kieren was answering my question on the URL for the pdf of the registerfly document that was just handed out

[10:40] guest-41: oh ok.. well strange nobody talked about the security breach at registerfly...

[10:40] jothan: hello sandeep

[10:40] jothan: are you here in Portugal?

[10:40] Joi: IS 7h3r3 4 URL pHoR 4 p4G3 7H@ d3sCRI83s 73h s3CuRI7y 8R34CH?

[10:41] jothan: Why are there so many ICANN logos on the registerfly website if you load it today?

[10:42] jothan: joi, kieren is getting that together

[10:42] JeffJohnson: Yes - why has ICANN been unable to enforce its Revocation to the public awareness?

[10:42] jothan: wrt the rfly doc

[10:43] JeffJohnson: I had to make a couple dumb videos to draw attention where those that do not read UT news would see the problem

[10:43] Tina Dam: jothan - i only see one logo...? they are still accredited

[10:43] kieren.mccarthy: ICANN has made it *very* clear to RegisterFly that it wants its logo off their site. The fact it hasn't is part of the problem with the current system

[10:43] vbertola: hello to everyone from the podium

[10:44] guest-50: Hey Vittorio

[10:44] guest-65: Hey Vittorio

[10:44] JeffJohnson: Hello vbertola - excellent commentary from the pdium

[10:44] sandeep.r: jothan: Yes im here

[10:44] patrick: do you guys have questions the podium could address ?

[10:45] JeffJohnson: Failure to renew by registerfly results in expiration

[10:45] JeffJohnson: transfer-away prevented by RRP, leaves the reistrant no recourse

[10:45] vbertola: thanks - as you see, vint is not totally sympathetic with this kind of registrar problems, but things have actually been changing radically in the last weeks

[10:45] vbertola: I think that everyone is ready to have much better policies

[10:46] guest-41: patrick, my question is how sexure is registerfly after their security breach????

[10:46] guest-41: secure** sorry

[10:46] vbertola: in the meantime, if any RF customers continue to have problems that icann should address, please let us know

[10:46] JeffJohnson: indeed, rapid response is unavailable

[10:46] JeffJohnson: failed domain renews by RFLY are noe linkfarms

[10:46] WildSnake: I can't obtain any my domains at Enom registered through RFly!!!

[10:47] JeffJohnson: www.witnessconsultants.com - railed to renew is now monetized - case in point

[10:47] WildSnake: Enom support doesn't answer any my email requests.

[10:47] JeffJohnson: Registerflies.com has a contact inside ENOM that has helped

[10:48] WildSnake: Helped to whom? Registerflies?..

[10:49] WildSnake: I mean when ICANN will start look on the problem wider? RFly is just one of bad examples really.

[10:49] JeffJohnson: go to www.registerflies.com

[10:49] WildSnake: But not an exception.

[10:49] WildSnake: Do this everyday...

[10:49] JeffJohnson: RFLY and enom both have service issues

[10:50] WildSnake: Well. So why ICANN talks mostly about RFly only?

[10:50] WildSnake: Let Enom return back my domains!

[10:50] Patrick Jones: Info on the gTLD registry requirements just mentioned by Jon Nevett in the Registrar Constituency resolution is available at http://www.icann.org/announcements/announcement-05mar07.htm

[10:51] JeffJohnson: ENOM will but you must pay thier redemption $160 - extortionist pricing

[10:51] kieren.mccarthy: WildSnake: that is exactly what we are going to do - talk about the wider issue and make changes

[10:51] Patrick Jones: The link above refers to gTLD registry data escrow requirements only

[10:52] WildSnake: Yes. Kieren. And this is why I ask these questions here. To keep you assured on issues.

[10:52] jothan: if the registrant can show that they paid registr fly, my understanding is that they'd waive the

[10:52] jothan: fees associated with redemption

[10:52] jothan: so I am not sure you are correct jeff

[10:52] guest-41: hello

[10:53] jothan: eNom is not out to screw people, they're really helping to correct the issue

[10:53] WildSnake: Saying honestly this is hard to say on abstract issues when I see how whole my business goes down...

[10:53] guest-41: hello?

[10:53] WildSnake: Issue one - one thieves at Enom ask these 160$? What service stands behind this?

[10:53] JeffJohnson: ENOM isa good registrar, they have issues with resell accts with rfly, those accounts do have issues

[10:54] WildSnake: All whois data for my domain mention my names. So why should I pay for this?

[10:54] jothan: not saying perfection is in place, but the understanding I have from eNOM is that they have a whole team of folks that are helping with this, and they will waive

[10:55] JeffJohnson: Cases where RFLY didnt pay ENOM for renewal fees that RFLY took, these are issues

[10:55] WildSnake: I don't care about Enom's problems problems. Let they report this to ICANN and return my domains back to me.

[10:55] jothan: wow, so enom is helping despite getting schtupped with expenses on their end?

[10:55] guest-41: Ok anyone in here from ICANN who can look into something i found at registerfly?

[10:56] JeffJohnson: yes they are. though that help can be expensive

[10:56] WildSnake: I lost a hundred on attempts to renew my domains at Rfly too. So why Enom asks additional money from me? Could be I should ask money from them?

[10:56] jothan: jeff, I totally hear you

[10:56] JeffJohnson: ENOM was harmed more than most people know

[10:56] kieren.mccarthy: WildSnake - ICANN *does* know how frustrating this is. If it was as simple as stepping in, it would have been done before now. The situation is complex - this meeting is trying to explain what that system is and improve it

[10:56] jothan: I have the exact opposite experience

[10:56] jothan: but milage can vary

[10:56] WildSnake: I'm going to disturb ICANN with my request for fair service until Enom wouldn't deliver it to me.

[10:57] jothan: I will say this, they certainly have stepped up to resolve things

[10:57] jothan: above and beyond

[10:57] jothan: from what I am experiencing

[10:57] JeffJohnson: That is True ENOM is a good company. They did a bulk push for me that saved 9 domains.

[10:57] jothan: they stepped in before ICANN from what I understand

[10:57] WildSnake: Kieren the solution is pretty simple really. But I propose it only when I get assured that I'll receive help for my specific case.

[10:58] JeffJohnson: yes - they should be cridted as the first registrar that helped

[10:58] kieren.mccarthy: Okay, factsheet is up - written blog post - WildSnake I hope this helps explain some of the problems - http://blog.icann.org/?p=72

[10:58] WildSnake: Maybe Enom is good company for you Jeff. Or we are talking about different Enoms. But they haven't answered four my emails to their supports in last week. Period.

[10:59] JeffJohnson: go to www.registerflies.com a contact name within ENON is posted there.

[10:59] guest-53: hey everyone

[10:59] WildSnake: I already did. The same result Jeff.

[11:00] WildSnake: Looks like she already changed her minds on issue. Or company required from here to do so.

[11:00] guest-53: Who works at ICANN in this chat?

[11:00] JeffJohnson: K email admin@registerflies.com - he can help some

[11:00] kieren.mccarthy: Just checked the pdf is fine - it is - download it here: http://www.icann.org/announcements/factsheet-registerfly-registrars-26mar07.pdf

[11:00] kieren.mccarthy: I am ICANN's general manager of public participation

[11:00] vbertola: kieren is the only one, I guess

[11:00] guest-53: kieren.mccarthy, i have access to Registerfly's Fraud account login

[11:01] JeffJohnson: Thanks Kieren

[11:01] Patrick Jones: guest-53, I'm ICANN staff

[11:01] WildSnake: I'm talking to him directly in his chat. But how could he help? Enom doesn't belong to him and doesn't answer emails to their support.

[11:01] Patrick Jones: I'm ICANN's Registry Liaison Manager

[11:02] JeffJohnson: We should insitute a Failed Domain logsheet for people that need immediate help

[11:02] jothan: thank you kieren

[11:02] JeffJohnson: small business are suffering material harm

[11:02] WildSnake: I see no one cares to help to specific cases but prefers to discuss the situation in general. This is sad really.

[11:02] JeffJohnson: IMHO US DEPT of Commerce should assist you

[11:03] WildSnake: I should anyway mention my domains to be sure you are concerned about my specific issue.

[11:03] guest-53: Patrick Jones i also have access to Kevin Medina's Registerfly account

[11:03] vbertola: also there are customers all around the world (I just discovered that one of my best friends' .com, in Italy, was registered through RF until a couple of years ago...)

[11:03] guest-53: Patrick Jones i also have access to Kevin Medina's Registerfly account

[11:04] WildSnake: www.wildsnake.com and www.wildsnakes.com are domains belonging to me and Enom is trying to steal them from me by assistance of RFly.

[11:04] Patrick Jones: Jeff, if you are in the US, there's nothing stopping you from contacting the Federal Trade Commission about RegisterFly

[11:04] kieren.mccarthy: WildSnake: that is not true, several ICANN staff were taken off their (unrelated) normal jobs just to respond to individual requests. I am going to get up soon and say what the public response was

[11:04] kieren.mccarthy: In fact I am going up now

[11:04] JeffJohnson: Glenn Stansbury also has a pure Pre-Protectfly registrant data set

[11:04] guest-53: erm chat is not working

[11:05] JeffJohnson: Thanks Kieren

[11:05] JeffJohnson: There are now 18 of us here watching on HD screen

[11:06] Niclas: I have 38 domains hostaged without authinfo, I mailed my list to icann which forwarded it and told me to hold 2 days, I did and nothing happend, then I resent it and was told to wait 5 days, its day 5 now and no authcodes. Just for the record.

[11:07] guest-53: for prove ICANN Staff, login with these details at Registerfly: Username: fraud Password: changeme look at their fraud account, i think was not ment to be visible for me

[11:07] WildSnake: Solution in general: There should be the institution belonging to domain owners havning the same right to check, correct whois data as ANY registrar has. Such organization should be paid by ALL domain owners as part of any fees in any moment when any domain registration, renew or what ever takes place.

[11:07] WildSnake: And no any else funds...

[11:08] Niclas: But anyways, thanks to icann for (finally) taking action, I still have hope. Transfer-away is the most important issue, the free-market fixed the rest.

[11:08] WildSnake: English isn't my native language. So pardon if my proposal wasn't clean enough

[11:09] vbertola: actually, that's why simple and free transfer away is the first thing to be added to registrar accreditation agreements

[11:09] vbertola: of course you have to ensure that you don't make hijacking too simple

[11:09] JeffJohnson: iconcurr

[11:09] vbertola: but authentication of the registrant is a different problem than having to pay a lot of money or wait for weeks before getting your domains released

[11:09] JeffJohnson: TRansfer-away process is already sometimes complex

[11:10] JeffJohnson: so best practices are in place with existing systems already

[11:10] jothan: Is this the Jeff from Iron Mountain?

[11:10] vbertola: jeff: I come from a country where banks open up accounts for free in 30 minutes, but ask you $100 and a couple of months to close them...

[11:10] JeffJohnson: No - i am Jeff from DSMJ.com

[11:10] guest-59: /nick phill

[11:10] WildSnake: I need the organization which represent my ( on only my ) interests in this process ( domain regsitration, renewals etc. )

[11:10] JeffJohnson: HD1080i.com

[11:11] WildSnake: ( AND only my )

[11:13] jothan: have you seen "the distinguished gentleman" with Eddie Murphy as star

[11:13] JeffJohnson: Yes.

[11:13] jothan: lol

[11:13] jothan: never hear that, right

[11:13] JeffJohnson: I work with celebs. I get that a lot

[11:14] JeffJohnson: http://jeff-johnson.com is me

[11:14] jothan: cool

[11:14] jothan: so I think vint is referring to droa

[11:14] jothan: "domain slamming"

[11:15] jothan: public comment should be lively

[11:15] JeffJohnson: I made the videos - google "registerfly Failure"

[11:16] JeffJohnson: http://www.brightcove.com/title.jsp?title=512723016

[11:17] guest-59: /nic phill

[11:17] WildSnake: Pardon for being harsh. Am I understand something wrong and this chat is devoted to selfpromotion of different businesses? Or are we still talking about current problems in attempts to find the solutions...

[11:17] guest-53: hello i'm back

[11:17] Patrick Jones: Long line in the public forum...8 so far

[11:17] guest-53: had some connection problems

[11:20] vbertola: as usual, two hours occupied with staff slides, and long line forming when mike opens, way beyond the expected end of the session...

[11:21] vbertola: not that slides aren't useful, but a "forum" is where all people expect to speak :)

[11:21] guest-62: hey

[11:22] guest-62: hmm

[11:26] JeffJohnson: Speaker is correct - RGP failure for Expirefly - this is unified Names

[11:26] JeffJohnson: unified names owned by Kevin Medina - also owner of registerfly

[11:26] JeffJohnson: name exires immediately into expirefly - then monetized PPC linkfarm page

[11:27] guest-62: erm

[11:27] vbertola: that's the kind of thing that registrars shouldn't be allowed to do...

[11:27] guest-62: ok mister ICANN Crew, i have the login details for Registerfly's Fraud account.... dont be retarded and use this info / data!!!!!!!!!!! USERNAME: fraud PASSWORD: changeme -good luck more then 14000 domain names, anyway, i hope you can take Registerfly down asap!

[11:28] vbertola: guest-62: whoever you are and however you got that information, I'm not sure whether one could use it without committing a crime... and there's already enough lawyers in this case

[11:32] WildSnake: Am I assume correct that there are no any ICANN representatives in the chat any more?

[11:32] JeffJohnson: current speaker MelbourneIT is correct

[11:33] JeffJohnson: Renewal Failure resulting from transfer failure has happened more than we have proprly documented

[11:33] Patrick Jones: The current speaker is Bruce Tonkin

[11:33] JeffJohnson: we need to gather up cases that fall into fail-over at a registrar

[11:33] Patrick Jones: The next speaker in the queue is John Berryhill

[11:34] guest-62: ok mister ICANN Crew, i have the login details for Registerfly's Fraud account.... dont be retarded and use this info / data!!!!!!!!!!! USERNAME: fraud PASSWORD: changeme -good luck more then 14000 domain names, anyway, i hope you can take Registerfly down asap!

[11:36] JeffJohnson: Keiren - will this webcast be archived for later download? i have folks in LA / hollywood that need to see this, excellent work

[11:37] JeffJohnson: they just woke up cand caled me in distress that they are missing the content

[11:39] Paul Levins: WildSnake, no I'm an icann employee as is patrick jones and kieren and amy as well so lots as well as Board members

[11:39] Paul Levins: WildSnake, no I'm an icann employee as is patrick jones and kieren and amy as well so lots as well as Board members

[11:39] kieren.mccarthy: Jeff - I agree - the timing is not perfect. We realised that we had to start talking about RegisterFly straight away at the meeting - that meant today at the public forum. I got the information out there about it as fast as I could and flagged wherever I could

[11:41] JeffJohnson: Yes, and due credit to you sir for superb extra effort and attention to details

[11:41] kieren.mccarthy: I spoke to the tech team - they are saving a version of the webcast. I will try to make sure that it is archived in an open format. And posted as soon as possible - but with the conference hosting constant meetings, there may be a delay simply because of resources

[11:42] JeffJohnson: Understood. brightcove.com is a very good replication/streaming service

[11:42] WildSnake: Great, Paul. So why you all don't answer the questions? Because you don't care about our specific issues? Is this how this sad? No one cares to help us?

[11:42] guest-59: One place that I noticed that RF stopped sending email notifications when a domain name expired. RF may have done this intentionally. Many lost their names because of this. This needs to be a policy and needs to be effectively be able to enforce this.

[11:44] JeffJohnson: TUCOWS - quite cogent.

[11:44] Paul Levins: WildSnake, what questions do you have? I'll see what I can do to answer them

[11:44] Paul Levins: WildSnake, what questions do you have? I'll see what I can do to answer them

[11:44] Patrick Jones: Speaker is Elliott Noss from Tucows

[11:44] jothan: Elliot Noss is a good speaker

[11:44] jothan: and he totally gets it

[11:44] jordyn: Making video more available is an interesting idea. Why don't we just put all the webcasts up on YouTube/Brightcove/whatever.

[11:44] kieren.mccarthy: I agree with the fact that people don't know how the system of domain names works. The big question is: how do you tell people?

[11:45] JeffJohnson: *applause*

[11:45] WildSnake: Keiren, Paul, why should we care how it works? We paid fee to accredited companies to have the system work properly for us.

[11:47] Paul Levins: WildSnake, because if you dont know some basics then you wont know your rights and where to go when you have problems. Its called caveat emptor or buyer beware

[11:47] Paul Levins: WildSnake, because if you dont know some basics then you wont know your rights and where to go when you have problems. Its called caveat emptor or buyer beware

[11:47] kieren.mccarthy: Why care how it works? Because the reason you pay $8 rather than $50 is because the market is very open and very competitive. The flipside to that is that it becomes Caveat Emptor - buyer beware

[11:47] JeffJohnson: Kieren - maybe we can chat offline later on awareness tools

[11:47] kieren.mccarthy: LOL - Paul just said the same thing. I swear to god we have never discussed this

[11:48] kieren.mccarthy: Jeff - sure - email me next week

[11:48] kieren.mccarthy: kieren.mccarthy@icann.org

[11:48] kieren.mccarthy: I have seen your postings btw Jeff - and the videos

[11:49] JeffJohnson: thx dsmj@dsmj.com

[11:49] vbertola: kieren: I know of no market where there is not any basic regulation though... especially a market where you have to get a license to operate

[11:49] JeffJohnson: *grin* do not judge me by that work

[11:49] vbertola: mine is vb@bertola.eu if anyone needs contacts with the at large users constituency

[11:50] JeffJohnson: Thx - we should persue this .

[11:50] WildSnake: Why to learn how bad working system works? Shouldn't you fix it at first? I'm just an owner of my 8 domains. And I want them back and keep them safe for future.

[11:50] kieren.mccarthy: Vittorio - yes, I agree. That's what we're arguing about here - the level of control to be asserted and in what circumstances. My response was specifically over why registrants should care about the system

[11:50] kieren.mccarthy: Or at least be aware of what domains are and aren't

[11:51] JeffJohnson: agreed

[11:51] kieren.mccarthy: Incidentally, I have just finished a book on Sex.com - the domain that for the first time gave domains any form of property right

[11:51] kieren.mccarthy: The law on domains is still undecided - and that is part of the problem

[11:52] JeffJohnson: and laws re: names vary by location

[11:52] kieren.mccarthy: I love Nominet's approach to ,uk domains, but then I may be biased

[11:53] tldagent: Hello Jeff

[11:53] kieren.mccarthy: Yes, that's another issue - the split between genetic TLDs and country code TLDs

[11:53] kieren.mccarthy: Basically, I think I need to do a factsheet on domain names. In fact I may need to do much more than that. I will mull it over

[11:53] JeffJohnson: we can do a global awareness thing, include PBS BBC NPR etc

[11:54] JeffJohnson: hello tldagent

[11:57] Paul Levins: I think it's contingent on various parts of icann - kieren defintely should do a factsheet but the ALAC has a crucial role here

[11:57] Paul Levins: I think it's contingent on various parts of icann - kieren defintely should do a factsheet but the ALAC has a crucial role here

[11:57] JeffJohnson: Thanks Vittorio - excellent

[11:58] kieren.mccarthy: I think this has ALAC written all over it in big letters

[11:59] kieren.mccarthy: Thankyou for everyone that interacted on this chatroom.

[12:00] JeffJohnson: Thanks-you much appreciated - the room here in New Englandf is applading at the HD screen

[12:00] Niclas: Thank you, and please take the RF situation seriousl, businesses go under everyday because of expire and transferlocks

[12:02] WildSnake: Everyone looks so happy of the chat. Does this mean that we ( regular domain owners ) can't expect any changes in the situation and should find another ways of doing our business?.. Sad reading really. Hope the meeting itself was more useful.